Tuesday, 29 August 2023

DBF playtest 2 - looking at costing

 


I'm doing a duck.  I appear to be serenely moving whilst paddling like mad under the surface.  No, we haven't moved.  Yes, it's driving me mad with frustration.

As before, the charts and italic text is a direct copy from the beta, and I must stress BETA, copy of the rules


SPECIAL AND OPTIONAL RULES

As fantasy troop types often differ from their historical counterparts, both in capabilities and in vulnerabilities, they often will have special rules governing their play. These rules will be listed in each individual army list for the troop types they apply. These rules will also be compiled in another section for use in building new army lists. Often these special and optional rules come with an added army point cost to purchase the Elements that use them.


CREATING AN ARMY

Prior to a battle, players should decide the number of army points each side can spend to create an army. For tournaments the army point totals will be determined by the tournament organizer. Troops with a minimum purchase number of “1” are mandatory and at least “1” must be purchased. Troops with a “0” minimum are optional and may be purchased up to the maximum indicated.


An army must contain one General Element designated as a Commander-in-Chief. Army lists may also contain options to add additional commanders as Sub-Generals. All Elements must be assigned to a Command. Prior to starting the battle, players record which Elements are assigned to each Command. Each Command must also be assigned one General as its leader. These cannot be changed after the battle begins. Generals each get a PIP die in the Command Phase. PIPs generated may only be spent on Elements in that designated Command. Exception: for the cost of 1 additional PIP the Army’s Commander-in-Chief can spend PIPs on Elements not in their Command.


ARMY TROOP GENERAL PURCHASE COSTS:

Troop Type


Point Cost

Characters:


Hero

10

Make Hero/Mage an Aerial

+2

Mage Level 2

10

Raise Mage 1 Level up to 5

+1/Level

Lower Mage 1 Level down to 1

-1/Level

Clerics, Paladins

8

Other Aerials:



Dragon

20

Great Flyer

10

Flyer

4

Mounted:


Behemoth

6

Knights

5

Great Beast

5

Cavalry

4

Beasts

4

Light Mounted

3

Foot:


Blades, Spears, Artillery

5

Bows, Auxilia, Warband, Pikes

4

Hordes, Skirmishers

3

Infernal Machines

8

Generals:


Make an Element a Commander-in-Chief (C-in-C)

(Note: Paladins & Dragons may not be C-in-C)

+10

Make an Element a Sub-General

(Note: Paladins & Dragons may not be Generals)

+5


SPECIAL AND OPTIONAL RULES

As fantasy troop types often differ from their historical counterparts, both in capabilities and in vulnerabilities, they often will have special rules governing their play. These rules will be listed in each individual army list for the troop types they apply. These rules will also be compiled in another section for use in building new army lists. Often these special and optional rules come with an added army point cost to purchase the Elements that use them. These rules may be considered optional for those wanting to simplify the game. Point costs may need to be adjusted. Here is a list of those rules:

Rule:

Extra Point Cost:

Barding: Mounted Elements count as Foot for Ranged Combat.

+1


Battle Frenzy: +1 on a winning score, but -1 on a losing score, in Close Combat.

0


Dismount: Mounted Element may be replaced by a designated Element matching the front to front. Costs 2 PIPs to dismount per Element. This may not be done in an enemy Threat Zone. The dismounted Element may not move in the Phase it dismounts.

0


Elite: Elements convert any combat die rolls of “2” to a “5”.

+2


Poor: Elements convert any combat die roll of “5” to a “2”.

-1


Ethereal: Element ignores Terrain for both movement and combat.

+1


Foot Hero: As a Hero Element but counted as a Foot Element. Move is 2BW in good going/ 1BW in other going.

-1


Heavy Armour: Adds +1 if the Element receives a Doubled Result in combat.

+1


Handgunnes: Count as Crossbows, but with a range of 2BW. They are Lethal in Ranged Combat.

0


Lethal: Add +1 on a winning score in combat.

+1


Mortar: As Artillery, but with a Range 4BW; may shoot over any other Elements.

0


Polearms: Count as Spears, but with the Retinue formation, instead of Shieldwall. They are Lethal.

0


Sneaker: Ignore the Camp or Castle Close Combat Tactical Modifier bonus when attacking. They treat both as +0

+1


Undead: Ignore Recoil Results in Ranged Combat, but count Recoiled as Destroyed in Close Combat.

Volley Gun: As Artillery, but with a 3BW range. It counts as Lethal.

I'm in cheating mode.

ADLG, Art De La Guerre seems to be the most popular knockoff um derivative, particularly amongst competition players.  So I borrowed their 2 Samurai lists and decided to "retrofit" them.  If I was better I could crop the pics etc.  but this is me, so - well--.  Let's 'ave a shufti:


0

Samurai 

Yoshitume.  

Hero General  Mounted Hero CnC on barded horse.  Lethal.  22

Mounted Samurai Elite Barded Cavalry 7 points 0- 8

Change 1 to sub general 0-1 +5

Warbow Steady Heavy armour 5p. 0-8

Upgrade to Elite 0-2 @ +2

Foot Samurai 4-12 elements

Fast Blades.  Battle frenzy  6p  7

Steady Blades Heavy armour 6p   9 

Upgrade to Elite 0-2 @ +2

Followers with 0-8 elements

Poor Steady polearm(spear) Lethal 5p 

Upgrade to ordinary +2

Poor Steady bow 3p 

Upgrade to ordinary +2

Mediocre Fast bow 3p 0-4

Other 0-4

Levy Poor Fast horde 2p  3 

Oyumi light artillery 5p 0-1

Change to Level 1 (Shugenja) Mage +4p.

Stampeding Cattle   Fast Beasts 3p 0-1 

Monk Ally

Sub General as mounted monk, Mage level 2 Barding, Heavy armour 17p  0-1

Mounted monks Heavy cavalry Fast 4p 0-1

Convert to mounted Paladin  +4p 0-1

Warrior monks Fast (spear) polearms  Battle frenzy.  Lethal 6p 0-4

Followers Poor blade 4p 0-2


Later Samurai 

Mounted Samurai Barded Cavalry 

7 p 0- 8

Upgrade to Elite 0-2 @ +2p

Change 1 to CnC 0-1 +10p

Change 1 to sub general 0-1 +5p

Fast Blades 5p  7

Steady Blade 5p  

Upgrade to Heavy Armour 0-2 +1p

Upgrade to Elite 0-2 @ +2p

Change 1 to CnC 0-1 +10p

Change 1 to sub general 0-1 +5p

0


Ashigaru  4-12
Fast Auxilia 6  4p 
Steady Auxilia 6  4p
Change to Poor Steady Spear 0-2

Steady Bow 4p
Upgrade to Heavy Armour (pavise)  0-1 +1p
Downgrade to poor -1p 0-2p

Other

Light artillery 5p 0-1

Change to Level 1 (Shugenja) Mage +4p.



Monk Ally

Sub General as mounted monk, Mage level 2 Barding, Heavy armour 17p  0-1

Mounted monks Heavy cavalry Fast 4p 0-1

Convert to mounted Paladin  +4p 0-1

Warrior monks Fast (spear) polearms  Battle frenzy.  Lethal 6p 0-4

Followers Poor blade 4p 0-2

Steady poor horde 0-3 @ 2p

After 1465

Change some Ashigaru to Poor Fast Pike 0-4 -1p
Change any Ashigaru to Arquebus as Steady crossbow 2BW range Lethal 0-8 +1p

Upgrade artillery to Elite +2p.
Upgrade artillery to infernal machine +4p
Change to Level 2 (Shugenja) Mage +5p
(An infernal machine Level 2 Shugenja Mecha will cost 20)

Revolting Peasants (may not be used with monks)
Mage L1 (Shugenja) sub General Fast Blade 0-1 15p
(May not command Elite Samurai, artillery or monks)
Ikko Ikki Fast Horde Battle frenzy 0-4 @4p 

Results - close fit or wot?  The text above went fairly easily into Chrome sheets.  I haven't done spells yet. That needs to work and I'll eventually get to play!
 
Min – MaxCostNo.Total
Early Samurai
Yoshitume.Mounted Hero CnC on barded horse. Lethal12222
Mounted SamuraiElite Barded Cavalry0-88864
Change 1 to sub general 0-1 +5 1 50-1155
Samurai ArchersWarbow Steady Heavy armour0-86530
Upgrade to Elite 0-2 @ +20-2020
Foot Samurai Blade 4-12 elements0
Fast Lighter armoured with NaginataFast Blades. Battle frenzy4728
Heavier armoured solid.Steady Blades Heavy armour500
Upgrade to Elite 0-2 @ +20-2224
Followers 0-8 elements0
Naginata or swordPoor Steady polearm (spear)4416
Upgrade to ordinary224
Bow not warbowPoor Steady bow3412
Upgrade to ordinary0-2122
Other archersPoor Fast Bow0-4300
Levy Poor Fast horde 2p 30-3200
Other 0-40
Oyumi light artillery 5p 0-1Artillery0-1515
Change to Level 1 (Shugenja) MageMage0-1010
Stampeding CattleFast Beasts0-4339
Monk Ally0
Sub GeneralSub General as mounted monk, Mage level 2 Barding, Heavy armour0-11700
Mounted monks Heavy cavalry Fast 4p 0-1Heavy cavalry Fast0-1400
Convert to mounted Paladin +4p 0-1Paladin0-1400
Warrior monks Fast NaginataFast (spear) polearms Battle frenzy. Lethal0-4600
FollowersPoor blade0-2400
201
Later Samurai.
Mounted Samurai Barded CavalryBarded Cavalry0-87214
Upgrade to Elite0-2224
Change 1 to CnC0-110110
Change 1 to sub general0-1515
0
SamuraiFast Blades0-75420
SamuraiSteady Blade5315
Upgrade Steady to Heavy Armour0-2122
Upgrade to Elite0-2122
Change 1 to CnC0-11000
Change 1 to sub general0-1515
0
Ashigaru 4-120
FastFast Auxilia0-64416
SteadySteady Auxilia0-64416
Change to Poor Steady SpearPoor Steady Spear0-2000
0
Warbow Steady Bow 4pSteady Bow4416
Upgrade to Heavy Armour (pavise) 0-1 +1p0-1111
Downgrade to poor bow0-2-20
0
Other0
Light artilleryArtillery0-1515
Change to Level 1 Shugenja Mage +4p.Mage0-1515
0
Monk Ally
(May not command Elite Samurai, artillery or Ikko Ikki)
0
Sub General as mounted monk17p 0-1HC Mage level 2 Barding, Heavy armour0-117117
Mounted monks Heavy cavalry Fast 4p 0-1Heavy cavalry Fast 4p 0-10-1414
Convert to mounted Paladin0-1414
Warrior monks Fast (spear) polearms Battle frenzy. Lethal 6p 0-4Fast (spear) polearms Battle frenzy. Lethal0-46424
Followers Poor fast blade 4p 0-2Poor fast blade0-2428
Peasants Steady poor horde 0-3 @ 2pSteady poor horde 0-3 @ 2p0-3236
0
After 14650
Change some Ashigaru to Poor Fast Pike 0-4 -1p0-410
Change any Ashigaru to Arquebus as Steady crossbow 2BW range Lethal0-810
Upgrade artillery to Elite +2p.20
Upgrade artillery to infernal machine +4p40
Change to Level 2 (Shugenja) Mage +5p50
(An infernal machine Level 2 Shugenja Mecha will cost 20)0
0
Revolting Peasants (may not be used with monks)0
Shugenja sub Generalsub General Fast Blade L1 Mage0-1150
(May not command Elite Samurai, artillery or monks)0
Ikko IkkiFast Horde Battle frenzy 0-4 @4p0-440
199


Both of these are "fantasy light".  If you bung a dragon in there or the Shugenja Mecha, you're going to be hitting the minimums.  IMO fantasy has to have its own internal logic.  Troops of a type that the participants would not expect are - suspect.  No one will be happy to see tactical nukes deployed in Ukraine.  Nukes yes, dragon no.

Our early samurai selection gives us 33 bases.  Later 35.  Given my "wall yo wall" calculation of 36, that's big forces.